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Just some thoughts. Long and rambling, and rather ranting in places -_-;
Supernatural and Mythology: The Pros and Cons
Or cons and pros, since that's the order I'll be taking it in, but you get the point. And before we begin, a caveat: I have only watched S4 and S5 consistently, and only intermittant episodes around that (I came for Cas, you see), so my knowledge is still rather limited. Also, I am not the last, be-all-and-end-all authority on mythology, so I know full well there are large gaps in my knowledge and misapprehensions there, too. *shrugs sheepishly* This is just my personal views on what I know of both, yes?
Okay. SPN and Mythology. Right.
SPN is based on mythology, from the title on down. It uses mythology, in the guises of urban myth and folklore in the earlier arcs right through to the grand sweeping cosmologies in later arcs (from what I can see, anyway), to explore it's themes of family and human choice and agency. It's a show based on the foundation that mythological figures, creatures and events are real, existing in our world, and interacting with humans. Which ... is awesome. Lets just say that now. This is an awesome premise for a show, and it's part of what I adore about SPN, in a very, very big way (the other parts ... well, I love and adore the characters, and I love and adore the way they're brought to life).
I can't speak much about the urban myths/folklore end of it. In part because I haven't seen most of those episodes, in part because, even if I had, I'm not American, so I can't judge how fairly they dealt with American folklore -_-; The bigger, global myth arcs, though ... those, I can speak on. And shall. At length. You will want to hit me, just to warn you.
Okay, first. SPN seems to lump its larger mythologies into two categories (which, I think, is part of where the problems start): Christian, and Pagan.
The Christian end of things seems to be largely based off later medieval Christian myths and upwards, more than the actual Bible, I think. More ... Paradise Lost and Revelations, given that I understand that even the concept of Satan as a fallen angel comes from very late in the game, and the name 'Lucifer' only appeared in the High Middle Ages, as far as I know (which, admittedly, may not be far). So we're dealing with the more mythological end of things, rather than the directly religious, avoiding the New Testament and historical figures (aside from Luke) almost entirely, and being somewhat shaky on the Old Testament. Which, you know, may have been a wise enough decision.
Then there's the 'pagan' end of things. Which ... seems to be a catchall term for anything in the show that isn't American or Christian. As in, don't bother to specify, just call it 'pagan' and be done, as if the entirety of the world outside America falls into this one lumped word. Um. Yes. I have problems, yes? Obviously. Anyway.
Okay. Let's go to the cons. Um. Rant upcoming, folks, mostly about 5x19.
So ... They get things wrong. Lots and lots of things wrong. Basically. And I could give you specifics, or you could tell me the specifics, for a long while. Between the problems of angels (Uriel being only a 'specialist', for example, Zach saying he has six wings and four heads, which ... is sort of a mish-mash of at least two angelic orders ... then dying with only two ...), problems of gods (Odin having two eyes, Baldur being alive, Ganesh as a human-eating elephant ... and even typing that phrase, there is so much wrong with that) ... you get the picture.
But more than the specifics, more than maybe just the lack of research ... I think what bugs me most about SPN and mythologies, about SPN and faiths ... is the underlying attitude they seem to have towards it. They have created a world in which all these things, all these beings and events, are real. Are actual people and personalities, interacting on the screen. In this world, Yahweh exists, Lucifer exists, Kali and Baron Samedi and Odin exist. They're real. And then ... they get treated like creatures, more than people. Like beings defined entirely by their race/species, and always, uniformly, in opposition to humans, something for human agents to defeat and/or destroy (with the one exception of Cas).
Now, I get it. I get that the themes of the show are humanistic in nature, that they are about the power and necessity of human action, human choice, that they are about the importance of real people, real families, and what we choose to do even if destiny is a real force in our lives. I get all that. I get that, therefore, religious concepts are largely presented as things to be overcome, things that are less important than the choices the characters make, and the people those choices affect. I even approve of a lot of those themes. But ...
'Mythological figure' does NOT equal 'human eating monstrosity'. It can, Someone knows myths are FULL of monsters, but it does not directly follow that, based on the former, you must be the latter. Gods are not creatures, they are people. Not human people, save in certain cases, but people nonetheless. If you are going to create a world where they are real, you have to treat them as if they are real, real people with real motivations. *growls*
For example, Odin is not a 'species: pagan god', motivated by desire for human flesh, who believes that he cannot be killed in an apocalypse because he's due to be killed by a mythical wolf. Odin is a specific god, from a specific pantheon, who as far as I know never had a cannabalistic streak, and who knows, by prophecy, that he will be killed by a specific wolf, named Fenrir, who he happened to have tortured and chained a while back and who might be a touch annoyed about that. It's not his belief, not the faith of a senile old monster, but knowledge, based on the definite existance of a very pissed-off godwolf. IF we're taking Norse Myth as real in SPN verse, and granted Odin's presence, I think we can.
Also, 'Pagan' does NOT equal 'one solid lumpy cosmology formed of anything non-Christian'. Kali is not the same kind of god as Odin, the Baron is not the same as either of them (actually, the Baron is closer to the angels than the gods, based on his own mythology and the nature of the loa), and 'Trickster' is not a race or species, but a role. You don't get 'Trickster, common or garden variety, list of strengths and weaknesses'. You get the jotun Loki, from a mortal pantheon, or the god Krishna, from an immortal one, or the spirit Coyote, or ... They're not ... they're not creatures. They're people. *snarls in frustration*
Right. Right. Okay. And, while we're here ... 'Pagan' is not automatically lesser than Christian. I get it, I get it, weight of faith in America, I know. But ... Look, one angel, archangel, Devil or no, does not automatically storm through and destroy six gods in rapid order, with no trouble. Definitely not when said gods include the likes of the Baron Samedi, Kali, Ganesha ... These are relatively heavy-weight gods, incarnations of pretty heavy-weight forces. Right? If we're taking that all these gods are real, it should at least follow that they are recognisably themselves, and possessed of recognisable power.
I think that's why, too, that when I write about Gabriel and Loki, I am vehemently attached to the idea of Loki as a vessel. Because ... I can't stand the thought that there is only the Christian angel, that Loki does not exist in his own right, that the Trickster and Jotun and Bloodbrother is just a constructed personality for a Christian figure. I love and adore Norse Myth, and frankly it got hijacked enough by Christianity as it stands. *spreads hands helplessly* I couldn't stand the thought that there was only Gabriel, and in a world where Odin and Baldur were real (if shakily portrayed), Loki, my favourite, did not exist.
Which ... brings us to the pros, and perhaps out of the ranting portion of our evening. Since I'm guessing I've done enough of it, yes?
So. What I like about SPN and Mythology. It comes down to two things, really.
One: It created a world where any and all mythological figures have the potential to be real, where all the stories I read as a kid and an adult get a field to play in. Where Loki and Hades and Coyote and Anansi and Anubis and Thoth and Ahriman and Quetzalcoatl and Kali and Manannan and Lugh and ... Where all of them have the potential to be real. Whatever else SPN did, however badly it managed to treat them beyond that basic principle, it made a world where all my childhood figures are real, and I will always, always love it for that.
Two: It created a fandom where you can play with those mythologies. It created a fandom where you can write stories about Hel, or Kali, or Coyote, where Gabriel and Loki can hook up and look after their monstrous family together, where Baron Samedi can get a bewildered Castiel drunk and laid one night when Dean's not looking, where Hel can smack down Lucifer in vengeance for her family, where Kali can summon dead archangels back to life. It created a space where you're allowed to play with myth, with all those figures from childhood stories. It created, basically, a continuation of the oral traditions it's riffing off, of the folklore and story-telling that formed its base. Supernatural created a new thread of story-telling about old and fantastic figures, myths, event, and that, I think, that ... is worth the price of admission. Worth the mistakes.
So ... SPN and Mythology ... the cons, though plentiful, find themselves outweighed, at least for me. Though I won't forgive them, though I won't forget them ... this fandom, and this world, are worth it.
*blows out a breath* And that, I think, is where I shut up, yes?
Or cons and pros, since that's the order I'll be taking it in, but you get the point. And before we begin, a caveat: I have only watched S4 and S5 consistently, and only intermittant episodes around that (I came for Cas, you see), so my knowledge is still rather limited. Also, I am not the last, be-all-and-end-all authority on mythology, so I know full well there are large gaps in my knowledge and misapprehensions there, too. *shrugs sheepishly* This is just my personal views on what I know of both, yes?
Okay. SPN and Mythology. Right.
SPN is based on mythology, from the title on down. It uses mythology, in the guises of urban myth and folklore in the earlier arcs right through to the grand sweeping cosmologies in later arcs (from what I can see, anyway), to explore it's themes of family and human choice and agency. It's a show based on the foundation that mythological figures, creatures and events are real, existing in our world, and interacting with humans. Which ... is awesome. Lets just say that now. This is an awesome premise for a show, and it's part of what I adore about SPN, in a very, very big way (the other parts ... well, I love and adore the characters, and I love and adore the way they're brought to life).
I can't speak much about the urban myths/folklore end of it. In part because I haven't seen most of those episodes, in part because, even if I had, I'm not American, so I can't judge how fairly they dealt with American folklore -_-; The bigger, global myth arcs, though ... those, I can speak on. And shall. At length. You will want to hit me, just to warn you.
Okay, first. SPN seems to lump its larger mythologies into two categories (which, I think, is part of where the problems start): Christian, and Pagan.
The Christian end of things seems to be largely based off later medieval Christian myths and upwards, more than the actual Bible, I think. More ... Paradise Lost and Revelations, given that I understand that even the concept of Satan as a fallen angel comes from very late in the game, and the name 'Lucifer' only appeared in the High Middle Ages, as far as I know (which, admittedly, may not be far). So we're dealing with the more mythological end of things, rather than the directly religious, avoiding the New Testament and historical figures (aside from Luke) almost entirely, and being somewhat shaky on the Old Testament. Which, you know, may have been a wise enough decision.
Then there's the 'pagan' end of things. Which ... seems to be a catchall term for anything in the show that isn't American or Christian. As in, don't bother to specify, just call it 'pagan' and be done, as if the entirety of the world outside America falls into this one lumped word. Um. Yes. I have problems, yes? Obviously. Anyway.
Okay. Let's go to the cons. Um. Rant upcoming, folks, mostly about 5x19.
So ... They get things wrong. Lots and lots of things wrong. Basically. And I could give you specifics, or you could tell me the specifics, for a long while. Between the problems of angels (Uriel being only a 'specialist', for example, Zach saying he has six wings and four heads, which ... is sort of a mish-mash of at least two angelic orders ... then dying with only two ...), problems of gods (Odin having two eyes, Baldur being alive, Ganesh as a human-eating elephant ... and even typing that phrase, there is so much wrong with that) ... you get the picture.
But more than the specifics, more than maybe just the lack of research ... I think what bugs me most about SPN and mythologies, about SPN and faiths ... is the underlying attitude they seem to have towards it. They have created a world in which all these things, all these beings and events, are real. Are actual people and personalities, interacting on the screen. In this world, Yahweh exists, Lucifer exists, Kali and Baron Samedi and Odin exist. They're real. And then ... they get treated like creatures, more than people. Like beings defined entirely by their race/species, and always, uniformly, in opposition to humans, something for human agents to defeat and/or destroy (with the one exception of Cas).
Now, I get it. I get that the themes of the show are humanistic in nature, that they are about the power and necessity of human action, human choice, that they are about the importance of real people, real families, and what we choose to do even if destiny is a real force in our lives. I get all that. I get that, therefore, religious concepts are largely presented as things to be overcome, things that are less important than the choices the characters make, and the people those choices affect. I even approve of a lot of those themes. But ...
'Mythological figure' does NOT equal 'human eating monstrosity'. It can, Someone knows myths are FULL of monsters, but it does not directly follow that, based on the former, you must be the latter. Gods are not creatures, they are people. Not human people, save in certain cases, but people nonetheless. If you are going to create a world where they are real, you have to treat them as if they are real, real people with real motivations. *growls*
For example, Odin is not a 'species: pagan god', motivated by desire for human flesh, who believes that he cannot be killed in an apocalypse because he's due to be killed by a mythical wolf. Odin is a specific god, from a specific pantheon, who as far as I know never had a cannabalistic streak, and who knows, by prophecy, that he will be killed by a specific wolf, named Fenrir, who he happened to have tortured and chained a while back and who might be a touch annoyed about that. It's not his belief, not the faith of a senile old monster, but knowledge, based on the definite existance of a very pissed-off godwolf. IF we're taking Norse Myth as real in SPN verse, and granted Odin's presence, I think we can.
Also, 'Pagan' does NOT equal 'one solid lumpy cosmology formed of anything non-Christian'. Kali is not the same kind of god as Odin, the Baron is not the same as either of them (actually, the Baron is closer to the angels than the gods, based on his own mythology and the nature of the loa), and 'Trickster' is not a race or species, but a role. You don't get 'Trickster, common or garden variety, list of strengths and weaknesses'. You get the jotun Loki, from a mortal pantheon, or the god Krishna, from an immortal one, or the spirit Coyote, or ... They're not ... they're not creatures. They're people. *snarls in frustration*
Right. Right. Okay. And, while we're here ... 'Pagan' is not automatically lesser than Christian. I get it, I get it, weight of faith in America, I know. But ... Look, one angel, archangel, Devil or no, does not automatically storm through and destroy six gods in rapid order, with no trouble. Definitely not when said gods include the likes of the Baron Samedi, Kali, Ganesha ... These are relatively heavy-weight gods, incarnations of pretty heavy-weight forces. Right? If we're taking that all these gods are real, it should at least follow that they are recognisably themselves, and possessed of recognisable power.
I think that's why, too, that when I write about Gabriel and Loki, I am vehemently attached to the idea of Loki as a vessel. Because ... I can't stand the thought that there is only the Christian angel, that Loki does not exist in his own right, that the Trickster and Jotun and Bloodbrother is just a constructed personality for a Christian figure. I love and adore Norse Myth, and frankly it got hijacked enough by Christianity as it stands. *spreads hands helplessly* I couldn't stand the thought that there was only Gabriel, and in a world where Odin and Baldur were real (if shakily portrayed), Loki, my favourite, did not exist.
Which ... brings us to the pros, and perhaps out of the ranting portion of our evening. Since I'm guessing I've done enough of it, yes?
So. What I like about SPN and Mythology. It comes down to two things, really.
One: It created a world where any and all mythological figures have the potential to be real, where all the stories I read as a kid and an adult get a field to play in. Where Loki and Hades and Coyote and Anansi and Anubis and Thoth and Ahriman and Quetzalcoatl and Kali and Manannan and Lugh and ... Where all of them have the potential to be real. Whatever else SPN did, however badly it managed to treat them beyond that basic principle, it made a world where all my childhood figures are real, and I will always, always love it for that.
Two: It created a fandom where you can play with those mythologies. It created a fandom where you can write stories about Hel, or Kali, or Coyote, where Gabriel and Loki can hook up and look after their monstrous family together, where Baron Samedi can get a bewildered Castiel drunk and laid one night when Dean's not looking, where Hel can smack down Lucifer in vengeance for her family, where Kali can summon dead archangels back to life. It created a space where you're allowed to play with myth, with all those figures from childhood stories. It created, basically, a continuation of the oral traditions it's riffing off, of the folklore and story-telling that formed its base. Supernatural created a new thread of story-telling about old and fantastic figures, myths, event, and that, I think, that ... is worth the price of admission. Worth the mistakes.
So ... SPN and Mythology ... the cons, though plentiful, find themselves outweighed, at least for me. Though I won't forgive them, though I won't forget them ... this fandom, and this world, are worth it.
*blows out a breath* And that, I think, is where I shut up, yes?
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