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I'm ... trying to work through my rather complicated relationship with the Steve/Tony pairing in movieverse fandom. Forgive me the diversion, yes?
I'm realising, right now, that I'm sort of on the opposite side of the issue (originals vs adaptations) than I usually am. Well. No. Not quite true, because I usually don't view them versus each other, but alongside each other. I like to have access to both, original and adaptations, for comparitive purposes. I like the differences between them to be explained, to have rationales behind them (such as, new time settings, different media demands, genre shift, etc). Sometimes, depending on the originals, and often depending on the media, I'll come down more in favour of one than the other, adaptations or originals (in particular, movie adaptations of longer originals is ... a complicated issue, for me). It almost always depends on the canons in question, and often on which version I saw first (though not always - I saw musical!Les Mis before I read the book, but I like them both equally - that said, that case is particularly difficult because of the vastly different demands of the two media - a stage production is a very different thing to a book, and has very different ... I was going to say pros and cons, but that's not quite right. It uses much different tools, and is a very different experience).
Anyway. Point is, usually I like to have seen the original, when it comes to adaptations. Often, because I'm slightly anachronistic in my sensibilities, and enjoy kicking it old school a lot of the time, I'll favour the original over the adaptation (though, again, a lot of variance there, especially across media boundaries).
The Avengers is unusual for me, therefore, because I'm actually pretty happy to stick with just the movieverse canon (though that could be partially related to the two facts that a) comic-book wise, I've always been a DC girl, and b) there is so much of a crap tonne of comics canon to look at that I'm exhausted just thinking about it). The actual closest I've come to having another version in my head is when it comes to Bruce, because the TV show of the Hulk was my childhood, dammit, and the 2008 movie made me so incredibly happy with the approximately five billion shout-outs to it (Bill Bixby! Lou Ferringo! Jack McGee! You wouldn't like him when he's ... hungry? *grins*). Possibly also "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes', but cartoons automatically occupy a different block in my head (training from the DCAU). The movieverse has awesome characters, and awesome relationships, and really lovely tech (helicarrier! I want one!), and it makes me very, very happy.
It does leave me feeling slightly unbalanced in the fandom, however, because I know there are approximately five billion shout-outs and links to the comics canons that I am just not getting. I've got wikipedia, and comics 'pedias, and various other sources, and a quick scan through tells me, for example, who the revealed villain at the end of the movie was (though, actually, I kind of guessed that one, based just on osmosis from comic discussions). But ... quite a lot of the fanfic, particularly in the run-up to the movie when nobody knew what would happen (maybe that will shift a little, now?), was based largely in comics canons and characterisations (I'm guessing, anyway). Which I did not have access to. So. More than a little unbalanced (I didn't know Clint from Adam, for example, and fandom(comic?)!Clint seems to be a much different beast from movie!Clint, in hindsight).
Which leads me to the question of the Steve/Tony pairing. Which, I gather, is like the slash OTP in comics canon, with a burning love and loyalty and history that cannot be denied, all but shaped by the raw forces of destiny. Possibly literally. A pairing rife with devotion, and betrayal, and what appears to have been the most incredibly messy break-up in history during the Civil War arc. An incredibly compelling pairing, is what I'm saying. The stuff of OTPs. I get that, and that's awesome.
But, in the movieverse, and having seen only the movieverse ... I'm just not getting it, in this canon? Now, don't get me wrong, I can see the potential for it. The way Steve and Tony interact, the history involving Howard and the tesseract and the arc reactor, I could see how that could build. (Although ... why is there no real fic exploring Steve's connection with Bruce, that way? The serum, the Hulk ...?). There is an awful lot of potential in that pairing, I can see it.
It's just ... most of the fanfic I've been reading hasn't been movieverse Steve/Tony. At least to my eyes. It's been comics Steve/Tony, set in the movieverse. And I don't mean ... I don't mean that it's ignoring movie canon, just that it seems ... to be presuming connections that aren't there yet, in movieverse. There is a sense of ... predestination, to Steve/Tony fic, an idea that of course they will get together, their love is destined to shake the universe, comics canon has already told us so. Such that it's the standard background pairing even in non-Steve/Tony fic, and ... I kind of don't see why. In movieverse, at least. Some of the fic I've read does build off movieverse canon/events. A lot of it ... doesn't, so much?
And it's ... kind of weirding me out, a little. Okay. A lot. Not because there's anything wrong with the Steve/Tony pairing itself, but because ... I really, really hate the sense of predestination involved, especially when it comes to love. If I'd been, say, Jim Kirk, and Spock Prime showed up and told me this here asshole what I'm not particularly fond of is destined to be my best friend and possibly the love of my life, I would probably do everything in my power to kick said asshole off my ship, not even on his own merits, but mostly so I could tell destiny to go fuck itself and get its creepy voyeuristic ass out of my life (no, I don't have strong feelings on this, why do you ask?). And ... a lot of Steve/Tony fic is giving me that vibe.
Possibly this is exaccerbated for me because I'm fond of movieverse Tony/Pepper. And I know comics canon says they failed (or never really started? I'm not sure on that one), but they're not there yet in the movies. In fact, they're somewhere really sweet and adorable and kinda funny to watch, which I like.
And I'm fine, if a fic has that relationship fail, provided it does it for real movieverse reasons. Such as, for example, the fact that Tony doesn't really appear to understand the concept of permanence in a relationship, and has this annoying tendancy to relegate personal information of those around him to the 'irrelevant' file in his head (to be fair, he does the same with his own, so), and Pepper sometimes has moments where she's not sure she'll always be able to keep playing emotional ping-pong with him while he keeps repeatedly almost dying and not seeing that much of a problem with it, because hey, he's not dead yet, is he? I mean, it's a precarious relationship a lot of the time (which makes the way it's still working at the minute all the more lovely). There are a lot better reasons to break that pair up than 'so Tony can get together with his true love from another canon', is what I'm saying. (And I know, some fic does, there are awesome fics out there, I do know this. I also know I 'ship movieverse Tony/Loki a little bit, which is weird if I'm also shipping Tony/Pepper, but what can you do? Multishipping is a bitch, sometimes).
It's the destiny thing that's getting to me, is my point. This sort of overriding sense that of course they are each other's true love, regardless of where the movieverse canon actually is in terms of their relationship. Like I said, I do see the potential - them learning to trust and sort of respect each other in the movie was awesome - Steve, in particular, though Tony not rubbing the poor time-lost man's face in certain things was also ... weirdly gentle of him. It's just ... I'm finding it hard to trust movieverse Steve/Tony fic, because I'm just not sure which version of them I'll be getting.
And it's a bit weird for me, because usually, like I said, I at least know where the other versions are coming from. I've usually seen the original. But ... Even with other adaptations, of other canons. It's always been that way for me. I like each version of whatever pairings you're having to fit with the canon you're setting them in.
Steve/Tony is just a really weird case, I know, because the moveiverse fandom version of them existed before the movieverse canon version of them, so naturally it had to be drawn from other sources, and look, comics canon is right there. I get that, and I gather that it's not a usual case. It's just ...
Like I said. If I'd been reboot Kirk, I'd have stayed the hell away from reboot Spock, just on general damn principles, because no way am I letting some creepy alternate universe destiny decide for me who or what I care about. Screw you, Spock Prime. Bones is cooler than Spock in this universe anyway. (Bones was cooler in the original, too, but S/Mc was my TOS pairing of choice, so it didn't much matter to me. Heh). And yeah, Steve/Tony doesn't actually have an avatar of that other canon telling them to trust each other and/or get it on (fandom only, on that one, I understand), but ... well, it seems to have the fandom for that, so.
Possibly it shouldn't concern me at all, because at the moment I'm very happy in the gen, team-dynamics stage of my love for the movieverse (and have a gen OTP in Tony & Bruce), and possibly as a newbie who's only seen the movieverse I don't have a right to an opinion, but ...
I'm hoping, now that the movie is out, there might be ... less of a sense of predestination about it? That it won't seem quite so much like the comicsverse relationship moved to a movieverse setting, but more based on these characters and their interactions. *shrugs* It's probably never going to be my favourite movieverse pairing (Tony's my fav, and at present I'm liking him with Pepper, with Loki, and as gen BFFs with Bruce, and Steve had some interesting vibes with Thor in the movie, so ... *grins sheepishly*), but ... I probably would like it a whole lot more if there wasn't this sense of destiny hanging over the fandom version to get my back right up and make me want to instinctively send them to opposite corners of the planet and tell them, it's okay, you can fall in love with whoever you want, both of you, no-one's going to force you to love that asshole just because some other you loved some other him (though, if you want to love him, fire ahead, boyo, and luck be with you).
*shrugs* And I'm not sure how much sense any of that makes, I just ... wanted to explain the weird aversion I'm having towards movieverse Steve/Tony at the minute. It's not that I dislike the pairing itself, or think it doesn't have merit. It's that I get the nagging impression that people aren't looking at movieverse Steve/Tony on its own merits, they're looking at it as a reflection of the comicsverse version, just set in a different universe. And I realise that someone coming from comics canon first might love that, but for me it just ... weirds me out. I get a weird sensation of trying to force someone into a relationship they don't yet understand the reasoning for, and it gives me a mild case of the willies.
*smiles sheepishly* Yeah, I'm weird. What can you do?
Anyway. Point is, usually I like to have seen the original, when it comes to adaptations. Often, because I'm slightly anachronistic in my sensibilities, and enjoy kicking it old school a lot of the time, I'll favour the original over the adaptation (though, again, a lot of variance there, especially across media boundaries).
The Avengers is unusual for me, therefore, because I'm actually pretty happy to stick with just the movieverse canon (though that could be partially related to the two facts that a) comic-book wise, I've always been a DC girl, and b) there is so much of a crap tonne of comics canon to look at that I'm exhausted just thinking about it). The actual closest I've come to having another version in my head is when it comes to Bruce, because the TV show of the Hulk was my childhood, dammit, and the 2008 movie made me so incredibly happy with the approximately five billion shout-outs to it (Bill Bixby! Lou Ferringo! Jack McGee! You wouldn't like him when he's ... hungry? *grins*). Possibly also "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes', but cartoons automatically occupy a different block in my head (training from the DCAU). The movieverse has awesome characters, and awesome relationships, and really lovely tech (helicarrier! I want one!), and it makes me very, very happy.
It does leave me feeling slightly unbalanced in the fandom, however, because I know there are approximately five billion shout-outs and links to the comics canons that I am just not getting. I've got wikipedia, and comics 'pedias, and various other sources, and a quick scan through tells me, for example, who the revealed villain at the end of the movie was (though, actually, I kind of guessed that one, based just on osmosis from comic discussions). But ... quite a lot of the fanfic, particularly in the run-up to the movie when nobody knew what would happen (maybe that will shift a little, now?), was based largely in comics canons and characterisations (I'm guessing, anyway). Which I did not have access to. So. More than a little unbalanced (I didn't know Clint from Adam, for example, and fandom(comic?)!Clint seems to be a much different beast from movie!Clint, in hindsight).
Which leads me to the question of the Steve/Tony pairing. Which, I gather, is like the slash OTP in comics canon, with a burning love and loyalty and history that cannot be denied, all but shaped by the raw forces of destiny. Possibly literally. A pairing rife with devotion, and betrayal, and what appears to have been the most incredibly messy break-up in history during the Civil War arc. An incredibly compelling pairing, is what I'm saying. The stuff of OTPs. I get that, and that's awesome.
But, in the movieverse, and having seen only the movieverse ... I'm just not getting it, in this canon? Now, don't get me wrong, I can see the potential for it. The way Steve and Tony interact, the history involving Howard and the tesseract and the arc reactor, I could see how that could build. (Although ... why is there no real fic exploring Steve's connection with Bruce, that way? The serum, the Hulk ...?). There is an awful lot of potential in that pairing, I can see it.
It's just ... most of the fanfic I've been reading hasn't been movieverse Steve/Tony. At least to my eyes. It's been comics Steve/Tony, set in the movieverse. And I don't mean ... I don't mean that it's ignoring movie canon, just that it seems ... to be presuming connections that aren't there yet, in movieverse. There is a sense of ... predestination, to Steve/Tony fic, an idea that of course they will get together, their love is destined to shake the universe, comics canon has already told us so. Such that it's the standard background pairing even in non-Steve/Tony fic, and ... I kind of don't see why. In movieverse, at least. Some of the fic I've read does build off movieverse canon/events. A lot of it ... doesn't, so much?
And it's ... kind of weirding me out, a little. Okay. A lot. Not because there's anything wrong with the Steve/Tony pairing itself, but because ... I really, really hate the sense of predestination involved, especially when it comes to love. If I'd been, say, Jim Kirk, and Spock Prime showed up and told me this here asshole what I'm not particularly fond of is destined to be my best friend and possibly the love of my life, I would probably do everything in my power to kick said asshole off my ship, not even on his own merits, but mostly so I could tell destiny to go fuck itself and get its creepy voyeuristic ass out of my life (no, I don't have strong feelings on this, why do you ask?). And ... a lot of Steve/Tony fic is giving me that vibe.
Possibly this is exaccerbated for me because I'm fond of movieverse Tony/Pepper. And I know comics canon says they failed (or never really started? I'm not sure on that one), but they're not there yet in the movies. In fact, they're somewhere really sweet and adorable and kinda funny to watch, which I like.
And I'm fine, if a fic has that relationship fail, provided it does it for real movieverse reasons. Such as, for example, the fact that Tony doesn't really appear to understand the concept of permanence in a relationship, and has this annoying tendancy to relegate personal information of those around him to the 'irrelevant' file in his head (to be fair, he does the same with his own, so), and Pepper sometimes has moments where she's not sure she'll always be able to keep playing emotional ping-pong with him while he keeps repeatedly almost dying and not seeing that much of a problem with it, because hey, he's not dead yet, is he? I mean, it's a precarious relationship a lot of the time (which makes the way it's still working at the minute all the more lovely). There are a lot better reasons to break that pair up than 'so Tony can get together with his true love from another canon', is what I'm saying. (And I know, some fic does, there are awesome fics out there, I do know this. I also know I 'ship movieverse Tony/Loki a little bit, which is weird if I'm also shipping Tony/Pepper, but what can you do? Multishipping is a bitch, sometimes).
It's the destiny thing that's getting to me, is my point. This sort of overriding sense that of course they are each other's true love, regardless of where the movieverse canon actually is in terms of their relationship. Like I said, I do see the potential - them learning to trust and sort of respect each other in the movie was awesome - Steve, in particular, though Tony not rubbing the poor time-lost man's face in certain things was also ... weirdly gentle of him. It's just ... I'm finding it hard to trust movieverse Steve/Tony fic, because I'm just not sure which version of them I'll be getting.
And it's a bit weird for me, because usually, like I said, I at least know where the other versions are coming from. I've usually seen the original. But ... Even with other adaptations, of other canons. It's always been that way for me. I like each version of whatever pairings you're having to fit with the canon you're setting them in.
Steve/Tony is just a really weird case, I know, because the moveiverse fandom version of them existed before the movieverse canon version of them, so naturally it had to be drawn from other sources, and look, comics canon is right there. I get that, and I gather that it's not a usual case. It's just ...
Like I said. If I'd been reboot Kirk, I'd have stayed the hell away from reboot Spock, just on general damn principles, because no way am I letting some creepy alternate universe destiny decide for me who or what I care about. Screw you, Spock Prime. Bones is cooler than Spock in this universe anyway. (Bones was cooler in the original, too, but S/Mc was my TOS pairing of choice, so it didn't much matter to me. Heh). And yeah, Steve/Tony doesn't actually have an avatar of that other canon telling them to trust each other and/or get it on (fandom only, on that one, I understand), but ... well, it seems to have the fandom for that, so.
Possibly it shouldn't concern me at all, because at the moment I'm very happy in the gen, team-dynamics stage of my love for the movieverse (and have a gen OTP in Tony & Bruce), and possibly as a newbie who's only seen the movieverse I don't have a right to an opinion, but ...
I'm hoping, now that the movie is out, there might be ... less of a sense of predestination about it? That it won't seem quite so much like the comicsverse relationship moved to a movieverse setting, but more based on these characters and their interactions. *shrugs* It's probably never going to be my favourite movieverse pairing (Tony's my fav, and at present I'm liking him with Pepper, with Loki, and as gen BFFs with Bruce, and Steve had some interesting vibes with Thor in the movie, so ... *grins sheepishly*), but ... I probably would like it a whole lot more if there wasn't this sense of destiny hanging over the fandom version to get my back right up and make me want to instinctively send them to opposite corners of the planet and tell them, it's okay, you can fall in love with whoever you want, both of you, no-one's going to force you to love that asshole just because some other you loved some other him (though, if you want to love him, fire ahead, boyo, and luck be with you).
*shrugs* And I'm not sure how much sense any of that makes, I just ... wanted to explain the weird aversion I'm having towards movieverse Steve/Tony at the minute. It's not that I dislike the pairing itself, or think it doesn't have merit. It's that I get the nagging impression that people aren't looking at movieverse Steve/Tony on its own merits, they're looking at it as a reflection of the comicsverse version, just set in a different universe. And I realise that someone coming from comics canon first might love that, but for me it just ... weirds me out. I get a weird sensation of trying to force someone into a relationship they don't yet understand the reasoning for, and it gives me a mild case of the willies.
*smiles sheepishly* Yeah, I'm weird. What can you do?
